HORIZONMarkets
01

Complete project overview

K-RERA · Registration filing
Plots
19 plots
Mix
19 × Bangalow / Villas
Booked
37 of 19 filed sold/bookedas declared in the RERA filing
Buildings
19
Land area
3,779 sq m
Floor area
2,310 sq m
Description
VICTORIA REALTORS TANIMA

Timeline

Project startedJun 2021
RERA registeredJun 2021
Proposed completionJun 2023
TodayJul 2026
Construction progress

85% overall, as filed

Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps etc0%
Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Installation of lifts, water pumps, Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment as per CFO NOC, Electrical fittings to Common Areas, electro, mechanical equipment, Compliance to conditions of environment /CRZ NOC, Finishing to entrance lobby/s, plinth protection, paving of areas appurtenant to Building/Wing, Compound Wall and all other requirements as may be required to Obtain Occupation /Completion Certificate0%
Overall Percentage of Completion of the work done For the entire Building /Wing0%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Installation of lifts, water pumps etc100%
Fire Fighting Fittings and Equipment100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Excavation100%
Basement(s) and Plinth100%
Stilt Floor100%
Slabs of Super Structure100%
Internal walls, Internal Plastering, Floorings inside the building, Doors and Windows to each Buildings100%
Sanitary Fittings100%
Electrical Fittings100%
Staircases, Lifts Wells100%
Overhead and Underground Water Tanks.100%
The external plumbing and external plastering100%
Completion of terraces floor each building100%
Common Areas work for each building like electrical fittings and other finishing works such as paving of common area etc100%
Per-activity completion % from the promoter's construction-task checklist filed with K-RERA — overall is the average across activities, as of that filing. A dated snapshot, not a live tracker.

Find your flat

Filed by type and size, in the batches the promoter registered — not a per-flat listing. Look yours up.

0 of 19 available
TypeArea sq mAvailable
Bangalow / Villas00 of 19

Shown in sq m. The filing records square metres; the sq-ft view is a straight conversion. As filed at registration, in the batches the promoter declared — not a live booking system.

02

Builder’s track record

K-RERA · Promoter registration

DHARMIC LIVING PVT LTD

CompanyPromoter type
Thrissur, KeralaBased in
No — the promoter declared this is a first projectDeclared prior experience
36Projects
1Cities
2021–presentActive
Timelineevery project, start → promised completion
Builder DNAthe whole portfolio, summed
560 plotson the public record across 36 projects
1,52,414 sq mplotted area
1,52,414 sq mland declared

These are sums of what the promoter has put on the public record across their projects — a sense of how big a builder this is, not build quality and not whether they finish on time.

Planning authoritiesthis builder's portfolio, by approving body
Avanur Grama Panchayath ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)2 of 36 projects
Mundur Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat2 of 36 projects
Parali Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat2 of 36 projects
Velur Grama Panchayath ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)2 of 36 projects
Akathethara Grama Panchayath PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Ambalapara Grama Panchauat PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Ambalapara Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Ambalapara Grama Panchayat PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Avinissery Grama Panchayath ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Elapully Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Kaiparamb Grama Panchayat ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Kaiparamb Grama Panchayath ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Kaiparambu Grama Panchayat ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Kannadi Grama Panchayath PalakakdLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Ottapalam MuncipalityLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Parali Grama Panchayat PalakakdLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Parali Grama Panchayath PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Pirayiri Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Pirayiri PanchayathLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Secretary Parali Grama Panchayath PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Sreekrishnapuram Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Sreekrishnapuram Grama Panchayath PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Thiruvananthapuram Municipal CorporationMunicipal Corporation1 of 36 projects
Thiruvaniyoor Grama Panchayath ErnakulamLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Tholur Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayatthis project1 of 36 projects
Thrissur Muncipal Corporation ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Valamkulam Grama Panchayath PalakakdLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Vaniamkulam Grama Panchayath PalakkadLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Vaniyamkulam Grama Panchayath OttapalamLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects
Velukkara Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Velur Grama PanchayatGrama Panchayat1 of 36 projects
Velur Grama Panchayat ThrissurLocal body (LSGI)1 of 36 projects

Counts are how many of this builder’s projects on Horizon’s record were approved by each body — a footprint, not a ranking of the authorities.

Every project Horizon has read from this promoter, oldest first on the timeline. Dates are the project’s start (where filed) and target-completion dates on the RERA filing; delivery isn’t reported here.

03

Location

K-RERA · Registration filing
Street
PONNORE
Village
EDAKKALATHUR
Taluk
Thrissur
District
Thrissur
Pincode
680552
Survey no.
362/2
Patta no.
2577
What’s nearby
SchoolsNearest school 1.4km away · Library 1.3km away
HealthcareHospital 1.6km away · Clinic within 2km
LifestylePark 1.0km away
ShoppingSupermarket 1.6km away · Mall 1.6km away
Getting around
Primary road 1.3 km · Thrissur-Kuttipuram roadRailway line 2.6 km · Guruvayur-Thrissur LineNo metro or railway within 5kmBus stop within 1km
Water & environment
Water body 437 m · KarikulamCanal 1.1 km
distances only — not a flood assessment
Land, title & encumbrance
Land ownershipBuilt on land that includes third-party owners — a landowner (joint-development) arrangement is declared; confirm the title and your share
As declared by the promoter at registration — a RERA self-declaration, not an authority's independent finding. A flagged line is worth verifying against the title documents; it is not a verdict.
04

Planning authority

K-RERA · Approved building plan

Tholur Grama Panchayat

Grama Panchayat
approved 29 Jul 2021 · 5 yrs ago
Layout Permit no. A4-BA(226798)/2021Survey no. 362/2

The promised possession date (1 Jun 2023) has passed. This record can’t confirm whether the project was completed — that sign-off is the occupancy certificate, below.

The occupancy certificate — the proof that isn’t here

A sanctioned plan is the government’s approval to build. It is not proof the project was built to that plan. That sign-off is the Occupancy Certificate (OC) — issued by the planning authority, the same body that approved the plan, not by RERA— and it isn’t in this record. Ask the builder for it, or check with the authority. Without an OC, banks may decline home loans, and any deviation from the sanctioned plan carries penalty or demolition risk.

Verify it yourself — look up plan A4-BA(226798)/2021 on the approving authority’s portal to confirm the sanction.

The approving body, at scale

Grama Panchayat

A village-level local self-government (LSGI) that issues the permit — Kerala's most common approving body. It has approved 268 RERA projects across 13 districts about 1 in 6 in Kerala.

Volume is context, not a verdict — a busier authority is not a safer project. And this counts RERA-registered projects on Horizon’s record, not all construction.

What this record cannot tell you

  • Build quality — no filing records how well it was actually built.
  • Private disputes — only complaints escalated to the authority appear here.
  • What it will be worth — the record is the past; it does not price the future.
  • Construction progress — K-RERA does not publish quarterly progress reports. How far along it actually is cannot be read here.
  • Complaints — K-RERA does not publish a complaints register. This read cannot speak to them either way.